MUBUTV Insider Podcast Episode Transcript
[Sas Metcalfe]

Ritch Ersa: Sas Thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.

Sas Metcalfe: It's great to see you, Ritch. Nice to be here.

Ritch Ersa: It's great to see you as well. I'm so glad that we're all back here at MusExpo. So it's been three years since 2019.

Sas Metcalfe: Wow. Pandemic over. Life continues on.

Ritch Ersa: Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I always like to begin these conversations with a question to each of our guests, especially someone with as rich and storied of a background in the business as you have, which is when in your life did you know that the music business was going to be your professional career path?

Sas Metcalfe: Probably not that early on, to be honest with you, because I didn't even know you could have a music business career. But as soon as I sort of moved to London, was out in the world seeing bands, loving music, which I'd always had loved and was a huge fan of lots of bands in the 70s where I grew up as a teenager. So probably later, more near my age, 20, really, I was like, I could do this. I have a lot to offer and I'm female and I'm going to go for it. So that's what I did.

Ritch Ersa: Okay, and you did. Absolutely.

Eric Knight: You're president for Global Creative for Cobalt Music and I was wondering if you can speak about what you look for both creatively and non creatively, when looking to sign a songwriter or artist to a publishing deal at Cobalt.

Sas Metcalfe: Well, creatively, obviously, it's all about the song. So we definitely listen to the songs and feel like you got to make sure that somebody has a wealth of material that they are contributing most of it, if not with a songwriter, whether they're a top line or whether they're a track person or producer orientated. So really there's lots of dimensions that we look for and obviously it's a bit of a jigsaw. We look at our roster and think, where do we need to strengthen up? Which genres do we need to sort of put our weight upon? And that's so creatively. It's all about the song. And then from the other side, I really feel like you've got to have someone who really is ambitious, who really wants to fulfill their dreams, that wants to work hard, and at the end of the day is prepared to go in rooms with people and really collaborate and work in a team environment.

Ritch Ersa: Yes. I think those things are so important when you speak about that, because I've heard publishers who they don't use names, but they've said, we've come across very talented people that we have chosen not to get into business with for precisely the reasons that you are articulating. Because they said the bottom line was we wanted it more than they did.

Sas Metcalfe: Exactly. That is something we definitely are quite perceptive to, some people think it's a lot easier than it is and they've had to have drive and ambition. Ambition is a huge word and there is some luck, obviously, we all know of great songwriters and really great songs that probably haven't had the success they deserve, but mostly I think it is down to the individual to really and we're there as a team to help provide them with all the tools and facilities to help them navigate through the waters to success.

Ritch Ersa: Today, we live in such a different world as far as access to music, we have so much more of it. Where are you finding your talent today, Sas? Is it through the usual trusted industry sources? Is it through the Marketplace forums? Where are you discovering talent?

Sas Metcalfe: Lots of different places, actually, relationships. I've been doing it for many years, so I know a lot of people that will tip me off or send me an email. My team are fantastic, the global team. They're finding things through their relationships. We're finding things that are online through social media as well. Obviously, TikTok is a huge thing these days and to be honest, there are some good songwriters that appear on there. You just have to dig deep a bit and make sure that there's just not one song, because that's a moment in time. Whereas we want to sign things that have careers and can repeat it if possible. So I think lawyers, nothing's changed. Obviously I'm talking songwriters here, but obviously we're also looking at a lot of bands, so you have to go out and see them. And really it is about who's building an audience out there and who the fans are gravitating towards. So that's important as well, the live element from the bands and it's not always coming to you with a link. Sometimes you have to go and see them.

Ritch Ersa: No, exactly. So you are finding songwriters who have enough material from TikTok?

Sas Metcalfe: Well, you mentioned that, yeah, we actually have, and I mean, recently we've signed a deal. If we feel that they're really talented and that they have written most of the song, then we can put them with our other writer producers and build out their catalog over time. It's usually on a development basis because they very rarely have a wealth of material that early in their careers. But if we believe in them and we think they're talented, yeah, we're doing that as well.

Eric Knight: Does Cobalt sign acts to the company prior to signing them to a record deal? If you believe in them enough?

Sas Metcalfe: Oh, yes, definitely, because I do feel that publishing is a really great development towards your business and it's the best kept secret, really. It's the real home where you can really basically work with them over time to get their songs together and put them with the right people. And yes, we do that.

Eric Knight: Any examples of any of your acts.

Sas Metcalfe: Or any of the oh, God, you caught me. So many. The people that we've signed before, prior.

Eric Knight: To them getting well, I mean, in.

Sas Metcalfe: The UK, when I was back in the UK, I remember doing Jake Bugger very early and putting his songs together with Ian Archer. And then he went on to have a very big record. There are a number of people that would do that. We even have done that with writer producers. Andrew Watt, I signed really early and now he's the biggest producer in the world. But he literally came to me with a lot of ambition and some great songs very early on. So I feel like we're doing it sometimes they have a distribution deal or something, so they are building they're putting songs out and building their careers at the same time, but not necessarily signed to a major not signed, sealed, delivered. They're putting music out. They're in a position where they can make changes.

Ritch Ersa: You mentioned Andrew Watt, and he is one of the biggest and most successful producers today. Are you finding Sas, I mean, you've been in this a long time, so you have a point of view and a level of experience that a lot of other people don't have, which is that over time, have you seen more producers wanting to become recording artists of their own, making records? I think of like, Mark Ronson Uptown Funk was part of his record.

Sas Metcalfe: thats true, Benny Blanco.

Ritch Ersa: Benny blanco your own Andrew Watt.

Sas Metcalfe: Yes. I don't think it's everywhere, but obviously we encourage some younger producers. If they also have artist ambitions, I think it's healthy that they put out their own material. It's a way of them exercising that muscle, which I feel is we should encourage. I think it's great. And we are living in the world of features, so there's absolutely no reason why they can't make records with the people that with other artists that they work with individually or I think it makes interesting records.

Ritch Ersa: What makes Cobalt for a writer that is interested and you find yourself on the front lines of this, who's interested in a publishing deal and you're interested in them? What makes Cobalt the unique choice for songwriters versus your competitors in the music publishing space?

Sas Metcalfe: Well, we always pride ourselves on doing a great job. From the collection point of view, I think we were definitely the first to do deals where people own their own copyrights. So we were ambitious and made sure that they were collecting their money faster, direct with all the societies, rather than holding the money in the territories. So there was that element of what we were doing early on was very important. When I was talking to artists and songwriters early on, it was very different. Nobody had a somewhat administration type deal. They were locked in, they had MDRC, they had to deliver a certain amount of songs. We were doing term deals so that they delivered all the songs in the term. So the structure of our deals is very different. Over time, we've evolved, so we're doing more long term deals, but the other thing is, I think building out the team. I always wanted to have a creative element, well, a creative team that was global from day one. So I always felt that just signing things in territories and not sharing your writers globally wasn't the way to go. I feel if somebody signs to a company and signs a worldwide deal, they deserve a word worldwide service, so they know everybody on our team.

Sas Metcalfe: We have offices around the world, so you sign to Cobalt and obviously you have your deal. Sponsor the person that brings you in your the person that totally believes. But the writers have access to all of the team, and the team talks regularly. So it's one roster field, one bottom line. So they don't feel like, oh, I'm signed in La and no one even knows who I am in London. That's not how we do it. And I think that's a very attractive, attractive to the writers. I think they love having a nice big team to work with. So if they fly to London, they've got a great team there that helps them with collabs and song pitching or Germany or Sweden. So it's really nice they feel they have a family.

Ritch Ersa: That's great.

Eric Knight: Sas, I wanted to ask you, this is a new trend that we're seeing in the industry in the last few years. Do you find that a lot of your artist signings are using label artist services versus being signed to a traditional label today?

Ritch Ersa: I would say mixed. I think it's definitely become more of a trend because obviously we own AEWAll at one point.

Eric Knight: Right.

Sas Metcalfe: I was definitely encouraging and working with AWOL and it's an incredible service and people have really good managers around them that can help with the marketing plans and the vision. I think it really works very well depending on the genre of music as well. I think more in the sort of mainstream pop. They tend to be more major orientate, good majors. But there's a number of artists that have done very well on the distribution platforms and I believe they are very much the future.

Ritch Ersa: Oh, absolutely. As more and more independent artists get this and build careers, it's almost like we are redefining what it means to be successful.

Sas Metcalfe: Exactly.

Ritch Ersa: Because we're finding a lot of artists that are successful, but that they're not on People Magazine. They're not like stars in that sense.

Sas Metcalfe: Coming from a publishing angle, obviously we want to feel that they have a career. It's not about having one hit for us. We want to work with talented people over a period of time. So we're building up a valuable catalog for them.

Ritch Ersa: Precisely. Ses, let's say you've just signed a brand new songwriter into Cobalt. Take us through the journey in terms of what happens next for them in the Cobalt ecosystem. Is it setting up co writing sessions? Is it introductions to the producers, your other territories? What happens when a new person comes into your system?

Sas Metcalfe: even before we sign them we probably met quite a few people at the company. They probably met our sync team. Well, more than likely they've met our sync team. They'll come in and meet other members of the team, especially in La. Or if they sign in London, so they know a number of people in the creative team already, then we'll have like brainstorming meetings, come up with if they are an artist wanting to work themselves with better producers, then we'll put them in different rooms and we'll arrange their trips for them. So it's very hands on. We do a lot of collaborations, hundreds a week, so, you know, that's what the team spend a lot of time doing and then obviously, we're navigating where they're going with it. Is this working? They find their people, they find the ones that work. We always tell them not everything works, but give it a go, see how. But most of the time, just putting young songwriters in a professional environment, they step up to it.

Ritch Ersa: That's great. That's great to know.

Eric Knight: Sas, what do you find are the most common request or areas that you find songwriters or artists asking you to plug them into? Is it? Film and TV. Is it more cuts? Does it vary?

Sas Metcalfe: It does vary obviously with more musician typewriters that have ambitions to do film scoring or write bespoke for TV that will be known early if they're that way inclined. So they will meet the sync team and their job is to basically introduce them to different studios, different direct. You know, we always ask them who their favorite directors are, where their passion is, and try and open some doors for them to have their own relationships and build up their, well, basically just contacts and get the music to the right people. Now, there are times where we can ask them to write something for a specific show or a specific I mean, there's no you can't guarantee it, but our job is to open doors and facilitate, just help them on their journey. So, yeah, we do obviously a lot of that if they want that.

Ritch Ersa: You touched on this before and I'd like to follow up on it, which is that do you feel today, Sas, as somebody who's the president of Global Creative at a major publisher, that publishers today are doing more development of artists in the creative space than they were before? There was a period where a lot of publishers wouldn't touch artists, especially unless they had a record deal, unless there was an income source. What are you seeing now on the landscape in 2022?

Sas Metcalfe: I think it's very much changed, yes, I do feel you're right. In the early days, it was sort of what signed to the majors, let's look at that, but let's see what that is, whether it's usually very competitive. So I know the team, I encourage the whole team to sign what they love and who they feel comfortable working with. There's many different types of deals out there. There's obviously the hot ones, there's obviously the ones no one knows about, but just because no one knows about it doesn't mean it's not good if no one knows. But good things broke to the top pretty quickly and so therefore they're usually quite competitive these days. But your question was, we definitely like to develop the artists, if possible. And, I mean, I do believe that just having a big hit on TikTok, they still need developing for a whole wealth of other songs. They don't normally have a lot of, it's a marketing tool and they've hit something, but they need the follow up. They need to continue on their journey.

Ritch Ersa: Yeah, it's like you had said before, you gave us the criteria of signing a songwriter to a publishing deal. You want to see that they have a body of work behind them even if they're not signed. It's not just about one song, because otherwise no amount of time or money I mean time, but you've got to have something to work with. You bring up an interesting point. I remember this conversation with somebody at Columbia who said this was the problem. It was a good problem because it was the biggest record of all time. But that they ran into with little Nas X that literally was the first thing he ever did. And it was a freak thing that it became the biggest record of all time. But they ran into the same problem and no amount of money could force that get more material. You couldn't manufacture that out of thin air. And they thought that was the problem in the artist development process of yeah.

Ritch Ersa: I think you know that when you're going in with someone with one hit and obviously you're signing them because you believe that they've got more, it's just a matter of time and developing and using the great songwriters and producers that you have or maybe to help. And there's some wonderful songs out there. So I think it's really learning what direction they want to be in, where they're going, and putting the right people around them to facilitate that.

Eric Knight: I wanted to ask you, Sas, given the tremendous value of many of the classic songwriter catalogs being sold in the last couple of years, which has been an ongoing trend in the last couple of them, can you speak to the value of a songwriter artist holding on to their own publishing, being that Cobalt is one of the leading publishing administration companies of copyrights?

Sas Metcalfe: Well, I think the value is you have to have value in your songs. So therefore, I think it's fine if people want to sell. I mean, a lot of people these days are selling sort of chunks of their songs and then building up their catalogs again, maybe for another resale later on. So it doesn't mean they're giving up, it just means they're selling those songs and they're still writing, still very busy and building up their next catalog. I think it's the way of the world now. People have found the value of music. The city have found the value of music, the money people have found the value of music, which probably it's always been there. But now with streaming, they're beginning to actually be able to crunch the numbers and see it for real. And I think it's fine. I mean, if that's what people want, I understand that if they're older and they've got a catalog. Why not? Because who's going to look after it when they're gone? I think if that's what they want to do, then great. But I do think you need to build it and make it valuable.

Ritch Ersa: To your point, traditionally in the past, people did leave their catalogs to their children, or to their estate, if you will. This idea of, you know, I'm selling everything like Dylan has done, or Ball Simon or Stevie Nick or whoever, was not really in the mix. That idea of just . It just wasn't, it was a different consciousness.

Sas Metcalfe: Exactly, full time job running a catalog. And maybe their next generation doesn't want that.

Ritch Ersa: It doesn't want that. Exactly.

Sas Metcalfe: It's a big job.

Ritch Ersa: Oh, absolutely.

Sas Metcalfe: There's clearing of the samples and sorry, clearing up the songs for TV and film. You need somebody to manage it. It's a lot, especially those publishers do.

Ritch Ersa: Sas, how does an artist or a songwriter get on the radar of Cobalt?

Sas Metcalfe: Usually through a manager or contact another writer. We have a lot of our clients writers recommending us, which I think is the best way. They'll be in the studio and say, these guys are great, they work really hard, they've done that. I think that's the best way is when you've been recommended as a company. I always like hearing that because that's for real. But there's so many different lawyers will tell you about things. It's amazing. There's a lot so it's coming from all different places and it's our job to go through it, listen, make decisions, see the passion, feel there's someone on the team who really wants to go with it. And there's usually a lot of the creative team do deals together. So there might be someone in the UK and someone in the US that will do a deal together. And I think that's great.

Ritch Ersa: Oh, yeah.

Ritch Ersa: So there'd be a team of people, maybe from the our creative team, that want to bring in a deal, which is really good. And even if people are bringing it individually, they'll always play it to the other members of the team. So that, as I explained before, there's a team of people around each writer, not just the one.

Sas Metcalfe: Right, exactly. Which is important.

Eric Knight: You've been in the business for a long time now. Where do you see the future of music publishing heading not only for Cobalt, but for the industry as a whole?

Sas Metcalfe: That's a long ended question, but I feel like publishing has become more and more important over the years. I've done records and publishing. I prefer publishing because I feel like I like the back room. I like working with the early stages of things or making a difference. The release is the last piece of it right away. The early bit is, as we say it's, making sure the demos and then you get to introducing producers. So I feel like publishing has become much more creative than it ever was. And it will continue to do that, especially with, you know, the different ways that people are releasing music these days. They're releasing it themselves. There are obviously the major record companies and great independent record companies that really are working with artists on career paths. So I feel publishing is definitely on the right way. I mean, it's all going ahead with as it ever did, but it's stronger and more necessary and I feel that artists and writers sort of want to sign earlier. It's a real home.

Ritch Ersa: Let me ask you Sas, in your career, are there any books or any movies, films that you've seen over the years that you feel have been, I guess, particularly inspirational to you for people who are in the business that you have found really inspirational to you, professionally speaking?

Sas Metcalfe: Well, actually, I just recently watched the Beatles documentary

Ritch Ersa: God, wasn't that brilliant?

Sas Metcalfe: And I will say that that was so inspirational. I think every songwriter should watch that, because I think it just shows that the talent, the lack of ego, they were on top of the game when that was filmed and it's very inspirational. I've only watched them all once through, but I'm really looking forward to the second time because I feel like I see something else in it. It's probably the best thing I've ever seen because it's the most real thing I've ever seen. Yes, obviously, I've watched documentaries and stuff on lots of artists and writers and enjoyed them and I think you can get a lot from them. Mainly I think that one recently I'd definitely recommend.

Ritch Ersa: Oh, I have to agree with you. Like you, I've been a fan of those kinds of documentaries for years. But the one thing that that did brilliantly, which to me, as a film lover is very hard to do, they captured the creative process. Well, that's extremely difficult to do well on film. Very difficult. Many people have tried, as you know, but it's not something that you can get like the effect that you had. Wow. It's not easy in terms of what he created with that. It's very difficult.

Sas Metcalfe: It’s amazing. It's all about the instruments and ideas and not being scared of thrashing out your ideas in front of other writers and members of the band. And it was the imperfections which made it.

Ritch Ersa: Oh, absolutely.

Sas Metcalfe: Yeah. It's just good because obviously these days it's like people write to track. People are writing a lot on their own, especially with the pandemic. We had a lot of writing done over zoom. We encouraged people to keep doing it, which was difficult for some people. Other people loved it and some were like, can't do it. Just don't feel I need to be in the room with people. Exactly. But I do think that it's inspirational for young musicians, mostly guitar players. But the fact that Ringo is sitting there all the way through it on the drum, fantastic. Brought in late. It was just good, the improvisation, the way they could just jam it. And probably that's how songs were in. It was much more jam, much more.

Sas Metcalfe: And the thing that the advantage you have with this particular documentary as a viewer, especially if you know that work, you know what those songs that are in their infancy, what they became, that's the part that's like when Paul says the long and playing the piano, where do I go from here? And he says that like, what should the next I know.

Ritch Ersa: So collaborative.

Sas Metcalfe: And you realize what that became. But that's the part that's like the creative process, literally, as it's happening.

Ritch Ersa: Yeah.

Eric Knight: See what those songs became. And then you're seeing in the infancy.

Ritch Ersa: Of how that developed, how it was done. It's just brilliant.

Sas Metcalfe: Yeah. And the lyrics just singing almost anything, but parts of anything became something.

Ritch Ersa: Absolutely.

Eric Knight: That's usually how the creative process works.

Sas Metcalfe: It was really good. It was just notes, live notes, wasn't it? It's brilliant.

Eric Knight: South what advice can you offer our listeners who are wanting to pursue a career as a music publishing executive such as yourself?

Sas Metcalfe: I would say be around it, go out, see bands, meet songwriters, live it because I think networking is very important where you can meet people when you are finding new writers to listen to and champion so that you've got something to say. Like you could talk to someone like me and say, I recently met an amazing songwriter. I think you actually have to be living it before you can actually do it. It's okay on paper, say, I want to be a music publisher, but it's A and R at the end of the day and you have to have something great that turns people's heads and goes, well, and you have to be ambitious. And I'd say that really, there's nothing like going out there and seeing live music. Again, for publishers, it's just as important because we have some amazing artists that write 100% of their songs, like Sam Fender, we have Moses, some Ne, we have Father John Misty. I mean, these are career artists that are writing all their own songs. It doesn't mean to say they don't collaborate, but they're still incredible to go and see live as well. So that would be my advice. Get close to it and show ambition and don't be scared of your instinct.

Ritch Ersa: Same question for people who want to be they want a career as a professional songwriter, as an artist, what advice would you have for them today?

Ritch Ersa: Again, I think it's a hustle. It's a bit of a hustle early on, let's be honest. And you have to find it within yourself to do that because there's a lot of people, there's a lot of aspiring songwriters. So I think it's about getting in the mix and obviously, hopefully writing the song that people hear and go, my God, have you heard that song? It's incredible. But that gets harder and harder. There does need to be a little bit more of a story. So if you know someone or you can team up with people, it's better in numbers. It's a lot easier than in isolation. If you've got a team or you're working with a producer already, just find your people and work it.

Eric Knight: Okay, Sas, where can people best connect with you At Cobalt.?

Sas Metcalfe: Oh, with myself? Well, they can basically email me.

Eric Knight: Okay.

Sas Metcalfe: I'm not the quickest, but I do try and get to things, and if I don't, definitely one of the team will listen. Obviously. It's difficult to listen to every single thing, but I try my best.

Ritch Ersa: I can't thank you enough for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate you both. We really appreciate it.

Sas Metcalfe: I've enjoyed it. Thank you very much, both of you.

Ritch Ersa: Thank you. Thanks.

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